Two posts in one lunch period? Not possible!
I want to put down in writing some of my musings on the difficult subject of whether or not it is admissable, beneficial or appropriate to ask for intercession from those who have already departed. It is an issue upon which I have, I believe, a fairly open mind. It is also an issue against which I have deeply ingrained habitual opposition.
I've already overcome much of my personal anti-Catholic instincts, however. I feel no qualms regarding veneration in general. I can genuflect in good conscience, I affirm the Real Presence of Christ in the eucharist, I can venerate the Eucharist and the Crucifix without fear of idolatry.
However... prayer to saints remains a sticking point. Here are some of the issues I feel that I'm facing:
1) Is it possible for saints to hear you?
There's obviously no clear Biblical word on the abilities of the departed to relate to those left behind. There are some principles in scripture that affirm a unity of the Church that goes past the grave (Hebrews 11, for example: a cloud of witnesses), but that doesn't entail hearing, does it? The case doesn't seem very firm.
On the pro side, Dante argues in the Commedia that the saints can hear the prayers of those on earth because, in partaking of the beautific vision, they are privy to the thoughts of God. God can see earth, and they can now see earth through Him. This is a breathtakingly beautiful image, and in some sense I am sure it's true, but an image alone may not be a sufficeint argument (though, then again, it may be!).
2) What would I benefit if a saint could hear me?
Would another Christian (whom I know by reputation and tradition to have progressed more fully into Christ than I myself) be able to help me in some way that God could not? As a Christian, I am admitted through the torn veil of the temple and into the very holy of holies itself. Though my union with God is incomplete because of my fleshly impurities, God can still hear every prayer I offer, and will work in my life for good. This question seems the most powerful to me. At worst, the practice might sell God short on his omniopotence, and at best just seems unnecessary.
The best argument against this seems to be the experiences of those who have requested intercession, and had their prayers answered. It's not totally strange to talk to another Christian and ask his help in something. They can even work miracles through the Holy Spirit. The one prayer I've ever offered to a saint was answered, but I also offered it directly to God.
3) Deutoronomy 18: 10 - 11
I've heard this passage urged as condemnatory of prayers to the dead in general. Here's the passage:
"There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead."
This would hinge on what "calls up the dead" means. If it means any contact with dead people, then obviously we'd best avoid it. A point urged against that interpretation is that, in the transfiguration, there was a moment of contact between the living and the dead. Perhaps it means only necromancy, or calling the dead back from beyond the grave. Praying to saints obviously doesn't involve this, though.
This objection is obviously the most potentially damaging, but it doesn't seem effective here.
Ok, so there are my thoughts for now. Chime in if you wish.
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4 comments:
The one time in the Bible where I remember someone calling up the dead and getting in trouble is when Solomon (I think) has the spirit of Samuel called up. So, I suspect that case is an example of "calling up the dead."
Another route to take is to determine what causes those listed practices to be bad. Then you can see if any of those principles apply to prayer to saints.
I would also be interested to hear stories about people who had prayers answered that they gave to saints. It kind of makes sense, since we don't go around asking God for every single thing. We more generally ask people for stuff. So, why can't this behavior extend beyond the grave? Sheldon Vanauken thinks he may have talked to his wife after she died, and both Sheldon and CS Lewis talk about the remaining presence of their wives after they had died.
Finally, even more interesting to me than having prayers to the saints answered would be if I could actually talk to them, and find out about their lives, etc. That would be sweet.
I'd agree with your second "conflict" with the idea of praying to saints. Why pray to them? Jesus directed us to pray to the Father, Abba, or if I may be so bold: Daddy. Sounds terrible to say that, but it's exactly how Christ was calling on His Father. Also, the saints have no power to answer prayers or do the miraculous, it's the Spirit's power anyway, from God, so why would we go to someone else for God's power instead of Himself? It's just weird.
As to there being people who've had answers to prayer which have been offered to saints... well, what a gracious God. I don't think the saints had much to do with it actually. (c:
Now, talking with and sensing the presence of past people... I don't know that such is so bad. Knowing the presence (or apparent presence) of a dear friend or spouse who has passed away can give great comfort, and could be argued as a mercy that God gives to soothe a distressed soul.
I think the NT indicates we are to cast our cares upon the Lord, and His peace will guard our hearts. Going 'indirectly' through some saint or another just doesn't seem to jive with that calling. Wot?
Why, Luke, can we ask our friends to pray for us here on earth, then?
Eric's point seems to be that the normal behavior of humans is to relate to other humans as well as to God. If we could still do that with those that are dead, why not do it?
I think Samuel and Saul is a good example of breaking the commandment in Deutoronmy, Eric. I also agree that it would be really cool to be able to ask a saint (this term is loaded - I don't mean it theologically in the Roman Catholic way) about their life.
Luke: Prayer to saints generally only refers to asking them to intercede for you (as long as you don't veer into wacky animistic superstitious belief systems who may call themselves "Catholic" in error.)
So it's not, "Hey St. Antony, do you think you could provide a miracle here?" but rather, "Please intercede with God for me." It makes sense since presumably the saints have a better understanding of God. (Also they have more time on their hands...)
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